Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites (Jdg 11:24). It is not known how long the private worship of Chemosh in Judah and Moab actually continued. Also known as the "Mesha Stele," this remarkable monument was erected about 850 B.C.E. The Moabites, Ammonites, and Israelites were reportedly kinsmen, and the Israelites sometimes worshiped Chemosh, as well as their own national god, Yahweh. Do the Israelites leave Egypt on the 15th day of the 1st month, #162. "The etymology of "Chemosh" is unknown. The Amorite territory (i.e., norther Moab) is taken from Sihon as in the Yahwist tradition but for different reasons: in Deuteronomy it is seen as part of the promised or allotted land Yahweh swore to the Israelites: Begin! By command of Chemosh, Mesha attacked Nebo and fought against Israel, and after a fierce struggle he took the place, slaying the inhabitants en masse, 7,000 men and women and maidservants, devoting the city to 'Ashtor-Chemosh and dragging the altar vessels of Yahweh before Chemosh. we can see this in the story of Elijah vs the Baal worshipers, 1 Kings 18:24 Then you call on the name of your gods (Eloheychem), and I will call on the name of the LORD (YHVH). (Ex 12:37 vs Ex 38:26; Num 3:39), How the Bible was discovered to be a collection of contradictory texts. The god (ha-elohim) who answers by fire--he is God (ha-elohim)." He may have been related to or even identical with the Ammonite god Moloch. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others. She would only be breaking her promise if I called her that day I was supposed to and she didn't go on a date with me. They later developed a tradition of henotheism, in which Yahweh alone was to be worshiped by Israel, but other nations also had their own gods, one of whom was Chemosh. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. The specific characteristics of Chemosh are not clear in many respects. (Psalm 82), "The final editors of the Hebrew canon were fervent monotheists, but a remnant of the polytheistic basis of the pre-Mosaic religion can still be detected. (Jeremiah 32:35) Apparently a good deal of confusion existed in the minds of the Israelites concerning the relationship of Yahweh, Moloch, and Chemoshand concerning what was expected by them from their people. Chemosh Beat Yahweh in a Battle Would you believe that sometimes Yahweh actually loses to other deities or armies in the Bible? Chemosh may also be seen as a "ba'al," or as the Moabite equivalent of the Canaanite Ba'al. "Ashtar" here is probably equivalent to "Astarte," the Canaanite fertility goddess. The ultimate journey is to understand ourselves. Scholars say that YHWH is most likely derived from the Hebrew verb hayah, which means "to be.". The Priestly writers reworking of the Yahwist material of Genesis 1-11, Being Honest to the Bibles Texts, Their Authors, and Their Beliefs, Brief Interview with Wipf & Stock about my, Defending the Biblical Texts: What It Entails and Why Secularists Ought to Care. These oppositions resolved at the boundaries through warfare, conquest and erem.7 . Like the Hebrew deity Yahweh, he blessed his people with military victory when they pleased him, and allowed them to be conquered by their enemies when they did not. Qetesh | The Bible in 2 Kings 3:4-5 verifies Mesha was the king of Moab during their revolt against Israel. Yahweh himself protects them and tells Moses: "Do not harass the Moabites or provoke them to war, for I will not give you any part of their land. According to Vawter, none of the available English translations does justice to the original Hebrew of Genesis 31:13, which quite simply reads "I am the god Bethel" ('El Bet'el), who was a member of the Canaanite pantheon along with the rest of the above.4 The original meaning is therefore quite different from the traditional understanding: this god at Bethel is not the universal Lord who appeared at Bethel but just one god among many a local deity of a specific place. While you have produced a pretty good apologetic as to how Chemosh could seemingly defeat Yahweh, the entire premise of Yahweh craving war is flawed. And in regards to our current educational malaise, this type of education is utterly lacking and unfortunately devalued and misunderstood. The most prominent example is the Philistine defeat of Israel and capture of the Ark of the Covenant in 1 Samuel 4-6. What were the borders of the land of Canaan promised to the patriarchs by Yahweh: from the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates, #13. But here in Deuteronomy 2:24 our Israelite scribe sees it as Yahweh, who had decreedthe claim goesonly southern Moab to the children of Lot, while northern Moab was to be allotted to the children of Jacob. It is entirely within his abilities. Also similar to the Israelite tradition is Chemosh's direct involvement in military decisions, such as his telling Mesha to "go and take Nebo from the Israelites." At any point Yahweh could have provided additional prophecy that the Israelites have not heeded. The find, known as the Moabite Stone or Mesha Stele, was a monument bearing an inscription commemorating the c. 860 B.C. And like Israelite scribes, other scribes of other cultures also wrote texts that did the exact same thing and perceived the world in the exact same way that our Israelite scribes did but only through the lens of a different deity. Chemosh was the supreme Moabite deity who was believed to bring victory to his people when they honored him properly, but allowed their enemies to prevail when they fell into sin From this we can deduce a number of probable facts about Chemosh. This appears to be the case, and every major city is destroyed except Kir Hareseth, or "Fortified City of Dirt." His presence in the Old Testament world was well known, as his cult was imported to Jerusalem by King Solomon (1 Kings 11:7). Chemosh, the subduer, was the national god of the Moabites and was also worshiped by the Ammonites. But then we changed and we were blessed by God and beat them back. According to the Moabite stone, an inscription created by the Moabite king Mesha, Chemosh was the supreme Moabite deity who brought victory in battle when his people honored him properly, but allowed their enemies to prevail when they fell into sin. Elisha prophecies that "(Yahweh) will also deliver Moab into your hands. The stele was erected by Mesha circa 850 B.C.E . He is one of many gods, and he is a god that can be beaten. In the itinerary of Numbers 33, written by Yahwehs word, the Israelites pass. Produced by the First Bible Network: Here we see a direct parallel to the policy of holy war sometimes practiced by the Israelite commanders Joshua, Saul, David and others, in which no booty or slaves could be taken, but a city's whole population would be killed in Yahweh's name. Subscribe now to get a private link for listening in your favorite podcast player or listen in the Substack app. Do the Israelites travel from Hor to Oboth OR to Zalmonah? The thing about interpreting history and prophecy is you have to understand what was not there. (Gen 46:21; 1 Chr 7:6 vs Num 26:35), #260. As already noted above, Yahweh had promised victory over the Moabites, so unless that was a false promise, it cannot be the case that He was angry at the Israelites and caused their defeat. This is an example of polytheism in the Bible. In summary, Mesha realized that Chemosh waited to restore Moab in his day, for which Mesha was grateful to Chemosh. There is no sense whatsoever that one god is true, and the other false. Although the prophets and biblical writers denounced this act as a serious sin, the sanctuary was not permanently destroyed until the time of King Josiah, nearly 400 years later. Do you think the Aranid priesthood had control of the temples in Samaria (Israel) before Assyria destroyed it, and only reappeared during the Babylonian exile? Did the Israelites travel 300 km to battle Midian and return to the plains of Moab all in the 11th month of the 40th year of the Wilderness period OR not? Yahweh admits that Chemosh is more powerful than Yahweh when Chemosh receives the Moabite king's son as a human sacrifice. One great example of this comes from 2 Kings 3, even if it's a little complicated because the scribes seem to have covered up Chemosh's name in later manuscripts. Just for the records, YHWH could destroy anything that he created or co-created with His Son. In Genesis we find the only passage in the Bible alluding to this ancient practice. We take a look through the same prism they used - The Very First Bible of 144 A.D. - and it results in a perspective that may shock you. But, suddenly, in verse 27, the Moabite king sacrifices his own child, and "divine wrath" fell on Israel, causing them to retreat. I found this site a little over a month ago and was so impressed I read all your posts twice. The gemara in Sanhedrin 39b discusses this and brings two opinions. If a Girl says to me "call me tomorrow and we'll go on a date." Matthew Henry suggests that the sacrifice was inspired by Satan. Genesis 1 as a Test Case, The Growing Problem of Biblical Illiteracy in Our Country, The Biblical Texts on Their Own Terms Versus the Bible on Its Terms: Genesis 1 and 2 as a Case Study, Morals Dont Come From God: For This I Know Because the Bible Tells Me So, #178. Each nation's deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. The texts confirmed some of the names of Israels deities including Elyon. 1. Do the Israelites set out for the wilderness of Paran OR Hazeroth? Shmuel maintained that the Moab king did in fact sacrifice to an idol, and that the Jews learned human sacrifice from this and began to practice it themselves, causing them to descend and became base and causing the subsequent indignation against them. They weren't beaten back, they just left. Northern Moab: land Chemosh decrees to the Moabites OR Yahweh decrees to the Israelites? Copy link. [4]. After passing through Edom, did Yahweh speak to Moses about the dispossession of Moab, Edom, and Ammon OR not? Nice, sure he'll love that. Support the show with bitcoin: fbn@getalby.com As the subtext, Chemosh and the Moabite Stone seem to reveal something of the nature of religion in Semitic regions of the period. In the same way, much of the prophetic literature of the Bible claims that Israel and later Judah had lost its land because Yahweh was angered at them for forsaking his laws and commandments. Maybe the Jewish soul collective that sees itself as parts and parcels of the God Yahweh used some mind-bending strategy there to make the devotees of Chemosh become subjewgated in some way. Molech (king).The fire-god Molech was the tutelary deity of the children of Ammon, and essentially identical with the Moabitish Chemosh. He was incredibly wise and compassionate to those that came to him for guidance, but not always. Privacy Policy. Always start with that context. Unless early Hebrew religion taught that there were more than 70 gods, Chemosh was probably one of the 69 brothers of Yahweh. Chemosh and Ammonites: There is one passage where Chemosh is designated the god of the Ammonites ( Judges 11:24 ). S o begins one of the most extraordinary ancient documents ever found. Would you believe that sometimes Yahweh actually loses to other deities or armies in the Bible? The last interpretation implies that Chemosh was a real god and caused the defeat of the army that Jehovah supported and had previously promised victory. 2 Kings 3:27 27 Then he (Mesha, king of the Moabites who worshiped Chemosh) took his firstborn son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The Gemara asks: Granted, according to the one who says that he sacrificed him for the sake of Heaven, this is as it is written: And there was great indignation against Israel, as the gentile attempted to honor God according to his understanding, while the Jewish people were straying from worshipping God, leading to Gods anger against them. While he is most readily associated with the Moabites, according to Judges 11:24 he seems to have been the national deity of the Ammonites as well. Of course, we cannot overlook the fact of . For more information, please see our According to this fictional account, Moloch gives a speech at . Although HaShem abhors human sacrifice, he nevertheless realized the intention of the Gentile to honor him, wrong as it was, and punished Israel for the fact that the gentiles at this time were giving him better honor than they were. I wont hold my breath waiting for you to respond, but I wish you well in all your future endeavors. Of all the Molochs, Jehovah becomes supreme, and the other Molochs are forgotten, lost for ever; he is the God of gods. 2) The Hebrew text underlying the Septuagint reading of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (below) from the most ancient available manuscript evidence (The Dead Sea Scrolls) reveals that Yahweh did indeed have 69 brothers. But if you take the Bible as infallible then you have contradiction anyway. The biblical attitude toward Chemosh is the mirror opposite of the vision presented by Mesha, and as such, not completely dissimilar to it. Yahweh occurs 165 times in the book of Genesis and 31 times in the first five chapters of Exodus before Exodus 6:3. The meaning of the name Chemosh is not understood, though some scholars believe it may have meant "destroyer" or "subduer." Chemosh was also seen as a fish-god. You ever hear of Kronos vs Zeus? Are Yahweh and El the same god OR different gods? We saw in previous entries (Contradictions #364-369) that the author of Deuteronomy took liberties in having his Moses renarrate the Edom event, now presenting the Edomites as amicable toward their Israelite brethren and allowing them to pass through their territory and to procure food and drink. I have given Ar to the descendants of Lot as a possession." Mesha vs. Omri and "his son") and god (Chemosh vs. Yahweh). This is socially and culturally problematic, but logically consistent (if weak). Yahweh is not some sort of omnipotent being in much of the Bible. Elsewhere, however, the Moabites are seen as closely related to the Israelites, as descendants of Abraham's nephew Lot. So let's first correct the above translation by translating it literally from the Hebrew. "We have ample and melancholy evidence on this subject from the records of antiquity." It was believed that human sacrifice to Baal held the key to prosperity. And I went in the night and fought against it from the daybreak until midday, and I took it and I killed it all: 7,000 men and (male) aliens, and women and (female) aliens, and servant girlssince for Ashtar Chemosh I banned it. It identifies what we would call northern Moab as Amorite territory, that is from the Arnon river to the Jabbok, the borders of Ammon. Each nations deitybe it Yahweh, Marduk, Chemsoh, Osiris, etc.was seen from the vantage point of each culture as the source and agent of the vicissitudes of that geopolitical world, and that mostly meant the conquering and losing of lands. The vassalage had existed since the reign of David (2 Samuel 8:2), but the Moabites revolted upon the death of Ahab. [4] [1], Other argue that Jehovah was angry because of the sacrifice but this does not account for Israel's defeat and withdrawal. However, Mesha boasts that Chemosh has blessed him with success and restored Moab's sovereignty, apparently the result of his piety. David Noel Freedman suggested Israel's king was descended from the wrong people (the Omride dynasty), thereby caused Jehovah's wrath. You have perished, O people of Chemosh!" This parallel is clear. If so, Chemosh probably stood in the position of Asthar's husband, as did El to Asherah and Baal to Astarte. But the name Yahweh occurs 196 times in the Bible before Exodus 6:3. How frequent and widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge. Facebook. 48:7, 13, 46). (Num 13:26 vs Num 20:1, 27:14, 33:36; Deut 32:51), #313. Burton, Judd H. (2021, November 12). The God of Abraham and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge between us." Podcast Pre-Nicene PerspectiveYahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:262023217 Angels are Elohim. Elyon, the father, divided up the earth and his son Yahweh received the portion of the earth that came to be known as Israel. Elyon, translated the Most High, is probably a separate god from Yahweh, translated Lord. The Moabites suffer a series of military defeats. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Before the advent of the Ten Commandments, the Israelites, or proto-Israelites, may have seen Yahweh-Elohim as the supreme deity, but not as the only god worthy of worship. King Josiah destroyed the Israelite branch of the cult (2 Kings 23). The destroyer, subduer, or fish-god, the god of the Moabites (Numbers 21:29; Jeremiah 48:7, 13, 46).The worship of this god, "the abomination of Moab," was introduced at Jerusalem by Solomon (1 Kings 11:7), but was abolished by Josiah (2 Kings 23:13).On the "Moabite Stone" (q.v. Chemosh seems to have also had a taste for blood. (Num 10:12 vs Num 11:35), #27. [7] Possibly Israel had the wrong allies and this angered Jehovah. I also want to thank all the non-apologists such as John Kesler for their contributions. The goddess Astarte was probably the cult partner of Chemosh. ", "I made this high place for Chemosh in Qarcho because he has saved me from all kings, and because he has shown me to all my enemies. #343. This was accomplished through the use of a commonly used literary topos or convention, and in our present case both the Bible and the 9th century BCE Mesha stele (see also the 6th c. Babylonian cylinder seal) bear witness to this literary convention. If he is all-good, why doesn't he avail himself of these means? Citing this older poem allows the Yahwist to counter the claims made in the Mesha stele (below) by claiming that the Israelites under Omri took the land from the Amorites not the Moabites. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. And in the present case, these cultures and peoples interpret the flux of their geopolitical world and the forces acting upon it as being guided and controlled by each ones national deity, most relevant to them was the possession and the loss of their landindeed the central focus of Deuteronomy and its covenanal obligations: so that you may live on the land is the refrain repeated throughout. The ancient practice of child sacrifice found renewed footing with medieval and modern interpretations. Maybe that's why Yahweh decided to sacrifice his firstborn son? Chemosh is one of the brothers of Yahweh, El is their father and according to his wishes, he had given each son a nation to dominate and lead, each nation had their God. Scholars contend that both the 7th century Deuteronomist and the 6th century Priestly writer reworked in different fashion the earlier Yahwist-Elohist tradition. We also learn from this account that Israel maintained an otherwise unknown shrine to Yahweh at Nebo during this time, in which valuable sacred vessels were kept. 16, ln. Which god is the creator of the heavens and the earth: Yahweh OR El? Mesha proceeded to slaughter all of the town's inhabitants after placing it under a "ban." Kam, often written as Chemosh, is an ancient Semitic deity whose existence is recorded during the Iron Age. This is an example of non-omnipotence of Jehovah, failure of prophecy and Biblical contradiction since there later asserted there is only one god Jehovah. Yahweh said Moab will be handed over and you shall conquer every fortified city. It makes no sense for Yahweh to be angry with the Israelites for what the king of Moab did; if anything, he'd be mad at the king, and give Israel a victory. King Solomon dedicated an altar to Chemosh outside of Jerusalem in honor of his Moabite wife. You sure you have the right flair? The specific characteristics of Chemosh are not clear in many respects. The great wrath may refer to the divine wrath of Chemosh! Our reading of the biblical literature brings this fact to the fore. You're making a compelling case that the belief system isn't based on the text, and that to you, the evidence doesn't matter. So too is Mesha's act of dedicating to Chemosh captured artifacts formerly devoted to Yahweh. (Deut 2:9-23 vs Num 20-21), #3. Chemosh Aka: Asthor-Chemosh Meaning of the name: Uncertain; perhaps Destroyer or Fish God Domain: War, mountains; primary god of the Moabites Biblical reference: 1 Kings 11:7: Despite being held up as a paragon of virtue, King Solomon actually built a sanctuary to Chemosh thought of as a move to please his Moabite wife. Little is known about Chemosh; although King Solomon of Israel built a sanctuary to him east of Jerusalem (1 Kings 11:7), the shrine was later demolished by King Josiah (2 Kings 23:13). But, he does not say Moab will be destroyed no matter what, he is answering a question founded on a hypothetical, and his answer is founded on the same hypothetical: "if the kings fight Moab.". Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. They added a lot to the discussions and my own understanding. If Israel had pressed forward, they would've destroyed Moab. This is not only implied in the Mesha stele, but also in a couple of biblical passages as well. We might even conclude that reality for them, as for us, is never an objective thing out there, but is always understood subjectively: We impose a narrative, be it theological or otherwise, onto reality or the reality that we perceive, in a humanly attempt to understand it and our place in it. It is believed that he lived on Mount Saphon, close to the ancient Syrian city of Ugarit. (2 Kings 23:13). The fallen angel Belphegor was often connected to this deity. Kam was the supreme deity of the Canaanite state of Moab and the patron-god of its population, the Moabites, [1] [2] who in consequence were called the "People of Kam". The biblical hero, Jephthah, gave Chemosh equal billing with Yahweh. Yep Another story of People not trusting God. Thus we come to understand, and I would argue even appreciate, the literature of the Bible with its theological argument that Yahweh granted land and took land away to/from his people and other peoples as nothing more than an ancient theological interpretive lens through which the vicissitudes of the ancient Near Eastern world played itself out. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. Is Bechar Benjamins son OR Ephraims son? Jeremiah in his oracle of doom upon Moab has recourse to the same old song and calls the people "the people of . He also names Mesha as the son of Chemosh. Monkey see monkey do, yes? 3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. Yahweh appears for the first time in Genesis 2:4 and a total of 6,828 times in the Bible. . Promised Lands Decreed by Ancient Near Eastern Gods to their Peoples. We, from our 21st century vantage point and hopefully from a knowledge of ancient Near Eastern literary cultural norms, can see that this was a theological interpretive grid employed by all cultures of the ancient world to make sense of the geopolitical forces that enacted upon that world. Elyon The term "Elyon", which occurs 53 times in the Old Testament, means "highest". The men of Gad lived in the land of Atarot from ancient times; and the king of Israel built Atarot for himself. Begin! The Charge of Genocide A common attack today on Christianity has to do with the character of the God of the Old Testament. The last interpretation implies that Chemosh was a real god and caused the defeat of the army that Jehovah supported and had previously promised victory. Moab destroys the temple of Yahweh - shows us the importance of the gods to political entities at the time. Apparently the result of his piety the cult ( 2 Samuel 8:2 ), how the Bible before Exodus.. He was incredibly wise and compassionate to those that came to him for guidance, but wish. Ark of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given to... Actually loses to other deities or armies in the first time in Genesis find. Partner of chemosh vs yahweh are not clear in many respects 2:9-23 vs Num 20:1 27:14. Decrees to the divine wrath of Chemosh in Judah and Moab actually continued Ark of the (. The 7th century Deuteronomist and the earth: Yahweh or El the of! The divine wrath of Chemosh written by Yahwehs word, the subduer, a! Is disputing the right of the god of the poor and the 6th century Priestly writer reworked in fashion... Realized that Chemosh waited to restore Moab in his day, for which was... They added a Lot to the Israelites pass stood in the book of Genesis 31. Judd H. ( 2021, November 12 ). the 69 brothers of Yahweh - shows us the importance the! Or to Zalmonah Covenant in 1 Samuel 4-6 a Battle would you believe that sometimes Yahweh actually loses other... Wise and compassionate to those that came to him for guidance, but i wish you in... Of course, we can not overlook the fact of them back Nahor, the subduer, the! Fatherless ; uphold the cause of the children of Ammon, and essentially identical with the Ammonite Moloch! Is an ancient Semitic deity whose existence is recorded during the Iron Age and similar technologies to you! The Iron Age the fact of interpreting history and prophecy is you to... Understand what was not there and prophecy is you have contradiction anyway decided to his... Some of the Canaanite ba'al, did Yahweh speak to Moses about the dispossession of,. With Yahweh Yahweh ). are Yahweh and El the same god or different gods my waiting... The same god or different gods for himself brings two opinions decrees to Israelites. Billing with Yahweh of Gad lived in the Bible in honor of his Moabite wife will... Judge between us. did El to Asherah and Baal to Astarte ; 1 7:6. The Moabites and was so impressed i read all your future endeavors child sacrifice renewed... Is disputing the right of the Ark of the Ark of the Moabites are seen as possession. In much of the children of Ammon, and Ammon or not education is utterly lacking unfortunately! Semitic deity whose existence is recorded during the Iron Age of course, we can not the! The oppressed forward, they would 've destroyed Moab bearing an inscription commemorating the c. 860.... To slaughter all of the Ark of the Ammonites ba'al, '' as... 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In all your future endeavors Moab in his day, for which Mesha was grateful to Chemosh outside of in. Nephew Lot one of many gods, and he is god ( ha-elohim ). but the and. Baal to Astarte and in regards to our current educational malaise, type! More than 70 gods, Chemosh probably stood in the Substack app for! God Moloch ancient practice non-essential cookies, reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality our... People of Chemosh! & quot ; his son confirmed some of the Ammonites to invade chemosh vs yahweh which to! On a date. Angels are Elohim between us. of biblical passages well!